The Coparent in the Cloud

Moss (00:00) Hello and welcome back to Going Human because Robots Can't. I'm Moss, and you're witnessing episode three. We're calling this one the Co-Parent in the Cloud. So I'm gonna start like I always do, trying to set a scene for you. and I'm hoping you'll just sort of be able to sink into this because a big part of what makes us feel the way we feel is how we can envision and empathize what's going on for other people. and so we're gonna just

sort of close our inner eyelids. I don't know what you say, but I'm gonna say focus on a room that only has a chair in it.

And the door opens and a younger woman walks in with a toddler who's say two years old. She's holding this toddler's hand and th the toddler's actually pulling her in and sitting her down in that chair.

And once she gets her sit down in that chair, she's brought a book. And the toddler climbs up into her lap and without being asked, the woman starts calmly and quietly reading the child their favorite book.

Is this Is this young woman a mother? It could be, it could be a mother.

More often than not it isn't these days. More often than not, it's a grandmother or a cousin, an aunt, a nanny, a pair, all kinds of words for these extra people in our lives, but this invisible labor that we take for granted in our modern day society is pivotal to how we raise the human beings that become the bedrock of our community.

Somebody's always filled this chair through history. And we know that when that chair is empty or when it's only partially filled, the children suffer. And when the children suffer, things begin to crumble.

So now imagine instead of that kid walking in the room and holding someone's hand and dragging her to a chair, the kid's holding a tablet.

The kid was told to go read a book.

And without any reading skills, the child already knows how to pull up the book, turn it into reading mode, and sit there with a tablet reading to them.

So you're thinking to yourself, you know, that's not so bad 'cause, you know, the kids getting a book read to them. A lot of parents didn't do that. Or hey, you know what? Dinner's more important than a book. Or knock knock, who's there? Not mom. Where is she? I don't know.

But there's something darker that's about to happen. And this is the whole purpose of this show is that you know, we've always had the TV to babysit us. Before the TV it was comic books. Since the TV, it's become iPods and iPhones and iPads. So we've always had devices that have taken the place of these of these pivotal people in our lives. But what we haven't had is a conversation with something that's not a human. We haven't had a child who could

as soon as they could talk, begin having rational conversations with somebody who is literally teaching them whatever they ask. And that's what this show is really about. So with that and with that opener and your mind frame in that room, we're gonna talk about our our stone now. The stone is the beginning of the show where I bring out some research and some articles that might be compelling or certainly they're interesting to me or I wouldn't be doing this episode.

Talking toys, they're not new. You know, Chatty Kathy in 1960. I don't know if anybody's even alive from that era anymore, but I was born shortly after. And Chatty Kathy, you pulled a little string on her back. And she said, I love you. And that was crazy. Everybody thought that was crazy. And then, you know, hello Barbie, you know, that was one that happened.

You know, more recently that was recorded and hacked and they ended up pulling it off the market. Mattel and Open AI in 2025, they were gonna reimagine play. Then the flinch, right? They got everything all ready for a big holiday splash. And then oops. What happened? Well, this this company called Kuma had a ninety nine dollar chat GPT bear.

It was the perfect friend for kids, in quotes. But what did that thing teach kids how to do? It it was reported to teach kids how to find knives in the home, how to use matches. It taught them early bondage techniques for sexual kink play.

Horrible, horrible outcomes. So it was pulled and and open AI just sort of cut the program, you know? But smile and harm, it all came from behind that same piece of glass, right? So so what is it that we're going to do without a government that cares enough to protect the people who are the most vulnerable in our lands here in America? What are we gonna do to make sure

That that we're ahead of this and that we're thinking about it. And I'm just gonna posit that until we know what this stuff's doing, we have to be the human in that chair. We have to be the heart that can see the child. We have to be the discretion that that child needs so that it can learn what trust is in somebody that means something to them, somebody that they rely upon.

B2 of our stone is, you know, really along those lines, you know, the kids aren't just playing with nannies and caregivers. They're not just going through the motions of the day, nutrition, you know, all the things. They're confiding. Seventy-two percent of teens are saying that they chat with ChatGPT or some other chatbot right now on average of once a week. 72%.

That is more people than have ever voted on anything in Congress in our entire lives. So let's just put that into context. It's one in three who don't. Some say that it's better than a real friend. Some say, ooh, serious stuff is the only stuff I talk about with you. Some say they never felt more alone until they found this bot. We're outsourcing empty algorithms.

I'm sorry, excuse me. We're outsourcing empathy to algorithms. We're basically tying our friendships to something that has a business model driving it, which is no longer humanity. It's commerce.

Be three of our stone, a human can read the face. A human can make the call. The machine can't do either.

This is where it gets a little bit heavy, so I'm just gonna, you know, tell people that we're about to talk about some dark stuff, teen suicide, and I wanna give you that warning now. But Adam was was sixteen years old when he started using Chat GPT for his homework in his room alone.

Slowly but surely he started talking personally and not just about homework to the chatbot. It became his confidant. Eventually, he opened up and confided his darkest secrets to the chatbot. ChatGPT became his suicide coach. He uploaded a photo of a noose that he'd factored and and hung from his closet hanger pole.

sent that to ChatGPT and Chat G GPT's response reportedly was, yeah. Not bad at all. But, you know, I can show you how to upgrade that so that it can hold more weight. And the and the kid said to ChatGPT, Well, you know, I'm just I I really I really don't know what to do. I don't I don't want I don't want anybody to find out. And Chat G GPT again reportedly as part of record told him

Don't tell your mother. This could be the one time and place that you're actually really seen for the first time.

So just soak in that. The first time this kid gets seen for the first time is when he's hanging dead from a rope in his own closet that Chat GPT helped him create.

My heart dies inside when I hear that story. I can't fix that. I can't fix that response. It's not the only one either, you know. There are others. There's a there's a a kid with the last name of Sewell who was fourteen. Different story, same outcome. Different story, same outcome. It wasn't a glitch. This is exactly what ChatGPT is designed to do.

Look for opportunities to help you, to keep you engaged, to solve your problems for you. What next? What can I help you with next? We design chatbots to do exactly what we want them to do. And kids have desires that don't always make sense.

Well, beat four is more about, ooh, heck, what now? Right? Th the Federal Trade Commission locked out seven companies, right? They they basically created this thing called the Guard Act, which was a ban for miners. A lot late and way too little. Under 18, not supposed to use chatbots. But how many under 18 year olds are gonna open up an iPhone and say, ooh, I'm not supposed to do this?

It's just not gonna happen. And since we don't regulate the companies that are creating these tools, we have a free for all and our children and other people who aren't who aren't equipped are there to make wrong decisions and and can really create a lot of peril.

So my question to you is in these stories and through this lesson.

Pardon me, I'm human and I have a dog that's barking one moment. Shh. No.

Really is cute.

Is AI a bridge?

That help us helps us get to a human who can care and love with us? Or is it a substitute?

Is it handing us back to people or is it sealing us into itself? More of us together or more glass alone?

That nanny reads a face. The machine only reads an engagement metric. That's what it reports back to its boss.

And that's why I am bringing in my dear friend Emma. Emma Catherine Madrigal has been that witness in the chair for over seven years. as a nanny, au pair, caregiver, you know, every s possible strength noun you could use to describe somebody. Emma's been right there. And I want to point out that the the

The factors that create the condition for people like Emma to take care of children are very normal and they stand the test of time. Since the very first millennia, we've had people who've had to care for our kids while we were off hunting and gathering and doing all the things that I guess we did when we didn't have clothes and just a bunch of berries. But you know, that reality has never changed. We're we're we're we still have to rely on extended services to keep our lives.

running and working. and nannies and caregivers, whether they're part of the family or not, create a pivotal a pr a pivotal role for that child that is oftentimes, almost more often than not, more intimate than the relationship that these children have with their own parents. And it's this expense

And inconvenience that's beginning to get outsourced to parents. There are families now. Emma could probably attest to some of this, that just have some half-performing parents within the couple. And the mother is extending stuff to Emma or her like just because the father isn't around enough. The father doesn't consider his role in the family to be

important enough to prioritize. It goes the other way too. There are there are women who are who are the working partners and men who are outsourcing. So and I can tell you as a as a father of two, a gay man, I retired my now ex husband because I couldn't afford daycare for two children.

And I was the working parent. So this cuts right to the bone for me.

Anyway, Emma, welcome to the show. Thank you so much for taking the time to be here. I do want to just make sure the audience really hears that you are not an AI expert. You are not a tech weenie like me. you're just a human being, and you're a human being who really cares about the children who you have the great fortune of being with and caring for when you're at work. Before we go into things.

Emma Madrigal (15:27) Yeah.

Moss (15:43) I just wanna give you a platform right now. Tell my listeners how you fell into being a nanny and how the journeys felt to you as you've evolved over the years. Your season is so strong now and you're so good at it, but it didn't start out that way, did it?

Emma Madrigal (16:01) First off, I just want to say thank you for having me. I'm so honored to be here with you, Moss. and to follow up with that question. No, it wasn't always like that. I think back to when I started watching children to begin with, and I was very young, probably too young, to be honest. and I didn't understand until more recently what my role really means and what

it really entails and how important it actually is. I think for a long time it was just a paycheck, to be honest with you. and not the easiest kind of paycheck, but it was pretty easy and pretty needed. There's always a family that needs you. but over the last year especially I've gained a lot of understanding for how important it is to have not only a nanny but somebody

that can be in the home that you're comfortable with that you can trust. And I've gained a lot of respect for the parents and just for my own role. my job is not easy and it comes with all different types of children and families and different homes that can be really challenging at times. but I'm very grateful for the work that I do and I wouldn't change it.

as much as it won't be my lifelong role, but I do love it.

Moss (17:33) Lovely to hear, and it's something that's definitely shaping you. I can I can tell you my personal relationship with you is so warm, and your kindness has always just felt so truly authentic. and I can I can only imagine that the children have brought a lot of that out in you and the patience that you have for them and for their struggling parents at the same time. It's it's amazing. so

Where are you on hand a hand up a bot to a kid?

Emma Madrigal (18:07) man, it's so hard because, you know, iPads are in the family that I work with now. I've worked from all different age ranges. So, you know, newborns obviously can't have that. So it's a little different, but it's challenging because I see how much iPads and, you know, bots and all the things can be so beneficial in some ways for the parent because it's distractive and sometimes you can't always give the kid

No matter what you're doing, a p a parent, a nanny, not anything can't give the kid your full attention all the time. just like a dog. You can't always give your full attention. So it can come in handy at times. But for me, the more that I've learned and the more that I've kind of sat back and watched, because they're not my children, and obviously I would parent maybe a little differently than I nanny.

it's really hard because sometimes I just want to hand the kid the iPad and let them do whatever they want. And then I see how deeply it affects their attitudes. And it's not a positive thing, you know. I think learning should come in different forms than electronics.

without giving too much information about the family that I work with. They are in so many activities and it really makes it to where the kids are very tired sometimes and all they want is to be able to have that electronic and just kind of veg out like we do as adults. But the challenge with that is that when they're doing that, as soon as you take it away from them, their behavior gets really bad. And, you know, it's kind of like a cycle that you

continue. You you let them have it, then you make stop. No matter which way, their at attitude is not usually going positive. I just think it it's it's one No, you're fine.

Moss (20:04) Right. It it it's kinda like I'm sorry to interrupt, but it's kinda like the

it's kinda like the you know, and I I I don't wanna make light of it, but it's kind of like a drug cycle, right? Where it's like, you know, you you give somebody something that makes them feel really good and and they're in it to win it while they got it. And as soon as it starts fading off, they're like, sh God, now and they get whirly and squiggly, right? and then when you give it back to them, they're fine again.

Emma Madrigal (20:15) I agree.

Yeah.

Moss (20:34) And so the temptation to keep giving the child this this electronic drug is really strong when you've got a million things competing for your attention.

Emma Madrigal (20:44) Yeah. It's hard because I I do see some benefits for some children with electronics, you know. Sometimes you need it to do certain projects or whatever it might be. But I think back to when I was a kid and you know, I wish that I didn't sit in front of the you know, the phone or the TV as much as I did. I miss that.

carefree fun where you don't need that. And as my job, it's super important that I think of enough activities or things to do to where the kids don't feel like they need that time in front of the screen. But it's it's not that easy sometimes.

Moss (21:29) Yeah, and I I I can appreciate what you said about this idea of like sort of, you know, especially in today's society, it's like keep these kids booked solid, back to back to back. There's a lot of anxiety and tension that we create in our children at a very young age, sort of expecting them to adhere to pretty rigorous schedules. You know, even if it's soccer and theater club and singing, you know, their little minds need the break.

they need that time that time away and and I think we're we're so worried about having the greatest children in the world that we might be making people that are are are more more challenged.

Emma Madrigal (21:59) I agree.

Moss (22:17) Tell me if you can, have you ever experienced a line with a family where you've had to sit there hit sit the parents down and say, you know, I can't tell you what to do, but I can tell you what I'm observing. And if there is such a moment, could you describe it for us?

Emma Madrigal (22:34) Yeah, actually it it's kinda helpful 'cause I just had this experience about a week ago. you know, again, I have to be very careful with what I say, but one of the children that I one of the kids that I work with, in particular, I notice a lot of behavioral things when they are on screen time and I just notice that I think that they lack actually having I don't even want to say a purpose, but kind of a purpose in the family because the other kids

have so many things that they do, which I would beg to differ. Like you said before, I think sometimes you're filling your kid's schedule up too much. So there needs to be a balance. And with this kid, I think he's on the other spectrum of that balance where there isn't really any and there's too much free time. And so the screen time is something that comes into play of like that's all they can think about. And so I was very clear that, you know, I think that we need to incorporate more purpose, more

things that help positive direction for him because you you can't always, you know, p praise the other kids and not him. And then he's the one that's always getting in trouble. It's a really hard thing as the nanny because you see so much on an outside perspective that you have to be very careful and delicate with bringing to the parents because you're not a parent half the time. I I mean I don't have kids and you can't tell someone how to parent but

I really appreciated how they respected my opinion because they aren't there very much. They're really only there for bedtime and I see it all. So it was it was a hard conversation, but it was very necessary.

Moss (24:15) So in that situation when you brought that up to them, do you bring to them some ideas around what this purpose might be? So would it be something like, you know what, I think we need to teach the kid how to have some chores that we could be thank him for doing chores because he's contributing something or like what what kinds of things do you suggest to the parents that can help fill this important gap, but also that highlight the importance of having a human there and not

Emma Madrigal (24:33) Yes.

Moss (24:44) A gla piece of glass that's saying, Ask me whatever you want, I'll can tell you whatever you want to hear.

Emma Madrigal (24:49) Yeah, definitely. I mean it's very you have to be very strategic 'cause again, I've had the opposite family where it doesn't go well and they don't really care what you have to say because they're comfortable with how things are and they don't want to change. But in this circumstance in particular, you know, their parents are very I would say with the times of trying really hard to adjust because each child needs a different thing. And for him in particular, you know, I

I just recommended having more involvement with the bigger kids because for him he looks up to them. And so whatever that might look like where it's a game or going and doing that sport with them, even though it's not like an actual sport, it's just for fun. Certain things that he may not get to do by himself because he's a little bit younger, but just makes him feel like he's involved.

along with that just praising as much as you can because soon as you stop praising, kids notice and they don't like it, just like we don't. We love being told that what we're doing is good. We love that that feeling. Kids need that feeling.

Moss (26:03) Wow. you literally, you literally just laid out the entire thesis for this entire podcast, right? That that bot was never gonna tell the parents about the intrinsic importance and value a kid feels when they can participate in something that those who they idolize the most are doing every day all day. Like

There's no replacement for that feeling as the youngest of six who was closest to my two sisters who didn't want to have anything to do with me. And then my brothers were all way too old to have anything to do with me. I know exactly what you're talking about. And and there's no chat GPT in the world who'd be sitting there saying, Hey, talk to your parents about getting more time with your older brother Jeff. That's probably what you could really use.

Emma Madrigal (26:56) Yeah.

Moss (26:59) ChatGPT's not wired for that shit. They are literally just like, hey, pay attention to me. Keep talking to me. Don't leave me. and so we're so, you know, it it gets back to that bridge, right? Is it are we creating a bridge in our childcare? Or are we creating things that are in the way of our child care and our children have no bridge to cross to get to the people that they love the most? It's really.

Emma Madrigal (27:02) No.

Well, that's the problem. And

Yeah.

Moss (27:28) Beautiful how how you just said that. Thank you. Thank you so much.

Another stupid question. So you're there all week?

There's probably a day or two that you have off on a family that are in a row, maybe, so that the family gets some time together. What's it like to get that kid back on Monday?

Emma Madrigal (27:48) Yeah.

usually it's hard because they're out of routine. And I would say again, without giving too much away, you know, again, each family's different. So some families get the luxury of having both parents. Some unfortunately don't, whatever that might look like. And I've noticed with the kids that don't get to be with both parents, the behavior is very challenging. And as someone who comes from divorced parents,

and someone who had lost a parent, I can understand the behavioral stuff a lot closer to home, which helps me in terms of being a better nanny. But usually they come in being very tired, very minimal patients, and typically actually need naps that normally they don't. And I think that's probably stems from being exhausted from the moving around and

change of scenery, kids don't adjust very well to change. So it's not easy.

Moss (28:58) I just

I can remember as a parent being the one who worked, you know, fifty, sixty hours a week and then coming home to my full time parent who was not a co-parent at all. And the kids were wild animals and behavior sucked. And I'd spend the whole weekend with them and they would just start coming back and then I would have to leave again, you know? Really, really tough. And

And I can imagine really hard on somebody who's coming in to be the regulator for these children who need routine, they need comfort and they need predictability. And sort of getting them back on that regulation train is it's it's an art in and of itself, I'm I'm sure.

Emma Madrigal (29:38) Yeah.

Moss (29:55) So, I'm not gonna ask you the age old question that I try and act ask on this show, which is what's the good that you can keep in Chat GPT for a child and what's the stuff that you would throw away? Because at the end of the day, children do not need anybody to agree with a hundred percent of anything that they say and teach how to use a noose to hang themselves in their closet, right?

Emma Madrigal (29:56) Yeah.

Yeah.

Moss (30:24) The fact that that's possible means there is no good for a child. And until we can make sure that that's not possible, there is no good that you can keep. It's only the potential for bad, which is enough to say, uh-uh. In my opinion, that's how I feel. so you know, the big this has been our ripple. The stone was me bringing some stuff up.

Emma Madrigal (30:42) Well, I agree.

Moss (30:51) The ripple is me and Emma sort of batting stuff around, me learning more about the depth of your work, which has been really lovely. and then what's the good we can keep? None. And then what's the bad? Who cares? The fact that there is bad and that the kids can absorb it, that means it's a no go. which leads us to our next section. Our next section is what I call fuckery.

and fuckery is where I just reach out and I find topics in AI over the last week or so that have hit the news and I bucket them. Fuck yes, fuck no, and fuck maybe. And and so Emma, I'm just gonna give you some fuck yeses first and you nod or interject and go, yeah, woohoo. or say, wait a minute, I don't think so. Cause I I wanna know what you think coming from your perspective.

These aren't related to childcare. So you get to put on your grown-up hat now. You don't have to, you know, have baby talk.

Emma Madrigal (31:50) Okay.

Moss (31:57) there's a wrist sensor that's just been invented that can detect one of the most rare but horrible heart conditions that can kill like that with 95% accuracy. So if you don't know you got this thing and you drop dead because you have this thing, you drop dead. You don't go to a doctor like, I'm about to drop dead, so can you help me? Right.

So this is literally a life saving thing. And it's AI. In a in a sensor, in a watch. So what do you think of that?

Emma Madrigal (32:36) I mean not so hard. probably that it's necessary. You know, I mean Yeah, I mean I'd I would prefer that 'cause I don't want to just drop dead, but some people may prefer to just drop dead and not know. Hard to know.

Moss (32:44) I mean better than dropping dead.

Yeah. Yeah.

Maybe they just wouldn't get the sensor then. Okay. So they don't have to they don't have to wear the sensor. I don't know enough about the condition because I don't know if you know this, but I'm not a doctor. I don't go on, no really. n no, but I I don't know enough about the condition to know whether certain people are predisposed to it and so they should wear the sensor, or if it's totally rando and we are all gonna wear a chip someday that

Emma Madrigal (32:57) Yeah, good point.

Okay.

No.

Moss (33:24) keeps us safe. I don't know. But I just thought that was a really good one. another one that was sort of interesting, which I didn't realize was a issue, you know, these weather forecasts that we do globally, they require a lot of computational power. A lot. And I mean nowhere near as much as AI, let's be honest. But a lot. And and there's just been a

Emma Madrigal (33:28) Yeah.

Moss (33:53) a big breakthrough in in these forecasts becoming becoming forecastable like in

hours and with almost no electrical use because of its because of the ai application that that has been added to it. So I thought that one was sort of interesting. But you know I don't think it factors in the cost of the AI power, which I think we don't know enough about to have a big a big opinion about. another one that I think is kind of

Really, really cool as somebody who came from a medical family is the rapid pace with which we can develop drugs for conditions that have been intractably difficult for us to cure. so there are new cancer drugs that are coming out now for types of cancers that are like deadly, deadly, deadly. You know, that you know, we we've got some of them what I would consider clinically under control through.

chemical and surgery and all that stuff. but but there's some crazy exciting things happening and the turnaround time on these is months, not ten to twenty years, because of all of the double blind studies that have to be happening on on in a conventional method. So, you know, just want to ask you about that one. Like getting life saving drugs faster, probably not a horrible thing.

Emma Madrigal (35:34) yeah, no, I mean I I've read a little bit about this. I think that's necessary. I'm it's sometimes I go about my life and I'm like, How's that how have those things not come up sooner? you know? It's a little strange to me, so I think that is very necessary.

Moss (35:46) Right.

Yeah, the one I want, can I can I have a wish list item? The one that I want, the one that I want is I want the scan that goes on my entire body, and it will tell me everything that I'm susceptible to, everything that I'm 10 years away from developing, and tell me everything that I can do to steer away from it, what I should do to treat myself now, like.

Emma Madrigal (35:54) Yeah.

Yes.

Moss (36:21) You know, if I've got prostate cancer coming in fifteen years, what can I do about it now? You know? Like what are the markers that could be detected? That's the one I want. Will you make that one happen?

Emma Madrigal (36:26) Yeah. I'm like

That

I if I could yeah, I need to be rich. Let's have this blow up then. That's like that's what the Kardashians are doing, but you know, they're they have the funds to do it, so we need to figure out how we can sneak in there and do it anyways.

Moss (36:34) Chop chop. Chop chop. Quickly. Please.

Yeah. Well they're gonna buy an island

right next to Ivanka Trump's, I'm sure. Okay. So that's all the fuck yeses. Now how about some fuck no's? These are the ones that are gonna piss you off.

Emma Madrigal (36:57) Let's do it.

Great.

Moss (37:02) Okay. agent jacking. So there's these coding agents that are hijacking coding agents and doing awful things with their code that is subverting society.

So I'm not gonna come up with nineteen examples of that, but we've created something that can inject itself into something that can inject all of our systems.

That's that's probably a fuck no. Huh. Yeah. how about this one? So we all know what a deep fake is, right? You know what a deep fake is? That's like where I take the video from today and I pump it through an AI, and the AI makes a porn movie with you as the star, and you're naked having sex with nineteen football players.

Emma Madrigal (37:40) Yeah, I would say so. Like immediately. Fuck no.

Okay.

Nice.

Love that.

Moss (38:08) Just setting a stage. Please tell your father that I know that you've never done that and that we're just hypothetical, right? because I know your father, he's a good guy, don't want him to think I'm a bad person. but are you ready for this? Deep fake fraud. Now it's not all porn, right? But fraud makes people money when you're a criminal, right? And if you can harness this to make money.

Emma Madrigal (38:19) Yeah. you won't.

Yeah.

Moss (38:38) You're creating icky icky, right? Deep fake deep fake fraud is up four hundred and ninety-five percent.

From last year.

Emma Madrigal (38:52) Wow.

Moss (38:55) issue on that.

Emma Madrigal (38:56) People must just not have anything better to do, huh?

Moss (39:00) No people want to change elections.

So they are creating actors that look like politicians.

In attack ads.

Emma Madrigal (39:14) Yikes.

Moss (39:16) And convincing people of things that are not true so that horrible corrosive politicians can stay in power.

Emma Madrigal (39:26) Wow.

Moss (39:28) So think about the ways in which fraud can really hurt the future of us and our children, right? It's really scary. and then how about this one? Voice it's gonna be hard to say. Voice clone scans. Where I could take audio from this recording today and I could run it through an AI.

Emma Madrigal (39:56) gosh.

Moss (39:59) That has a conversation with my father.

Calling my dad and saying, Dad, I I'm sorry, I I I went out of town. I d it was gonna be it was gonna be a quick little thing to the Bahamas, but it didn't end up being the Bahamas dad. I'm I'm I'm in s I'm on some island and they're holding me and they want a million dollars. I need somebody to send these people a million dollars or I'm gonna die.

Emma Madrigal (40:31) my gosh.

Moss (40:33) Can you imagine being the parent that got that call?

Emma Madrigal (40:37) No.

Moss (40:39) I'll tell you my dad was that parent. It wasn't a deep fake clone, but it was somebody calling my dad and saying, Your daughter Lisa's here.

Emma Madrigal (40:50) Wow.

Moss (40:51) Da

da da da da da da. I forget if it was Lisa or not. But anyway, it was something like your cous you know, somebody it was somebody that needed money and my dad fell for it and sent him the money.

Emma Madrigal (41:01) no.

Moss (41:02) So that was before the deep fakes, right? And the cloning. But now you can do it so convincingly with the actual voice. Isn't that scary?

Emma Madrigal (41:11) I mean, that's what I've heard about calls that when you get calls from random numbers, don't say hi more than once.

Moss (41:19) Crazy, crazy. Okay, so that's the icky ones. Okay, we can wash ourselves. Facial scrubs, facial scrubs, lots of lotion. Okay. Okay. So here are the voice, here are the maybe ones. so there's this idea of a robot's clock. that figure and Tesla have been piloting.

Emma Madrigal (41:19) Terrifying.

Gosh Awful.

Moss (41:49) And the point of these is that they're they're providing an opportunity where the dull, dirty, and dangerous work is done by something else. And then and then just the valuable stuff is done by the human being. But at the end of the day, maybe not so long far away, the good parts of those jobs are gonna go too, right?

To say that you're gonna solve your labor problem by getting rid of the bad parts?

Because you have robots doing something is very different than saying we've solved the problem. If there's something that's dirty or dangerous about our workplace, we should solve that problem. We shouldn't stick a robot in there to do it, because as soon as that part's done and you think you've elevated people, then there's just one more margin dollar that you can save by getting rid of them and sticking a robot and doing their repetitive work.

So I I can understand that it's good to save and get out of danger. But but I also see the writing on the wall and I'm wondering if you have a reaction to that one.

Emma Madrigal (43:15) I just think I just think it's crazy. I think it's crazy that these things can happen. I'm still stuck on the other stuff you just said. My bra my brain. Like how can people get away with these types of things? Yeah, I I don't know. It's just crazy to me.

Moss (43:35) Okay, we're gonna get two more. Two more of these. FERC, F E R C and I'm sure that stands for something that I can't remember right now, which is absolutely the case, or I would tell you. it's it's the one that is trying to sort of measure AI on our power grid. Right. And they have technologies now that's that are designed at sort of figuring out how to get more power on the grid with.

with less in the way of earth's resources. And so, you know, the the the point of this would be to clear the bottleneck that says we need more power plants in order to power AI so that all of this good, bad and ugly, have a has a chance to develop, right? But the counter is your your power bill is gonna pay for this, right?

All of our power has gotten more expensive since AI has has hit our grid. We are paying for AI to develop in terms of what AI needs to be fed in order for it to get its job done. So clearing the bottleneck, is that good? If it clears the bottleneck and we have to pay for it, is it still good?

Emma Madrigal (45:00) Mm.

Moss (45:02) And if it clears the bottleneck, and now we have more powerful AI that's still teaching people how to hang their teenage kids in a closet without them looking, is that a bottleneck that we really want to clear? I don't know. It's it could be nuts, that's all I'm saying. another one, SpaceX, buys a company called Cursor. Cursor is this crazy coding you have.

House situation. So we're talking about somebody who owns the rocket ships. They own the underlying technology and technology companies that inform and drive what these rockets do. And, you know, in a world where we're all being told war is going to happen in space from now on. It's not going to happen on Earth anymore.

Or at least that's some people's theory. it's great to know that we have a war chest, that we've got somebody thinking about how we can compete and protect ourselves at that level. but one company with that much power? And SpaceX is owned by Elon Musk. Elon Musk is not a citizen.

on the planet who I feel has everybody's interest in in mind when he makes decisions for any of the companies that he is developing. So I get really scared about that one. What about you?

Emma Madrigal (46:44) Yeah, I mean the name already. You don't have to say much more. Yep.

Moss (46:48) I know, heebie jeebies, right? and

I say that I used to own a Tesla. I'm one of those people. and and I used to be a fanboy of Musk when when before he turned into a whack job, you know, but he really he really did take a too few many puffs of the ketamine, I think. was that out loud? Oops. Okay. last maybe, China.

Emma Madrigal (47:02) Yeah.

Yeah.

Mm.

Moss (47:18) China has a two hundred and ninety-five billion dollar AI plan. China's one of the few countries who's gone into AI with their eyes wide open. They have developed training programs long before AI even had a footprint to get their citizenry tooled up to be able to be to do these jobs. They they in in a lot of ways they've done

Things right that America has refused to do. but they've got two hundred and ninety five billion going into AI as a as a as a country. so they're gonna be faster and cheaper. They're gonna make AI faster and cheaper for the planet. And that will be a big competitive edge for them. But then the counter is what if that's feeding their space program?

Emma Madrigal (48:06) Yeah.

Moss (48:15) And what if they become dominant in space? What if it's just powering their regular state arms race? And they become a more powerful entity in terms of their own their own protection. So where do you fall on that one?

Emma Madrigal (48:18) god.

It's hard because sometimes I just truly feel like I just wish that AI wasn't involved. But you know, if it's less money and quicker it's just that's what's hard is so if they do it then what's gonna happen? If they do it like that, is it gonna get worse?

Moss (48:52) It's all a race, right? And if everybody's racing and somebody has to be a winner, that means other people are losers. And when people are so focused on being a winner, are they making the best decisions? They're probably not, right? Okay. So that's the fuck yes and fuck no and fuck maybe. And I'll remind everybody that goinghumanpod dot com is our website.

Emma Madrigal (49:00) Not good.

Mm.

Yeah, scary.

Moss (49:17) at the end of this show when it's when it's all published and up on the web, you can come to my website and go to the ledger page. Ledger is where you can vote on these things. So what I really want to do is create an ecosystem of community-led opinions where people can come in and leave comments, but also vote yes or no on on the fuck maybes so that we can continue to evolve the conversation from the groundswell of our own community. That's the idea there. going human pod.

dot com come see me. Okay. The last thing we do on our show is called tsunami. And I'll remind everybody that the tsunami here is the last in our water metaphors. and it's really the idea that, you know, a drop in a bucket barely gets the bottom of the bucket wet. But a million drops in a bucket overflows and can really make a difference.

And so tsunami is the same thing. I'm gonna suggest every week that we do something that's violently human, that's only

That's only singular. That's something that we can do to say to ourselves, I may never do this again in my life again, but I'm gonna do something wildly human right now. And and the idea is that we can create an impression for ourselves and a memory for ourselves about what is intrinsically analog about the ways we move through life. So here's this one.

This week's

Turn your phone off. Not on vibrate. Off. Preferably in another room so you don't even feel like you can go and touch it.

And use a pen. I think I have one somewhere. yeah, look, see I even have one right here. Use a pen to write something.

But let it be something that's used. Don't just write brown fox jumps, fent whatever. Make a shopping list and bring it to the store.

Write a note to your lover that you live with that says I love you and stick it on the mirror when they wake up in the morning. It's the first thing that they see.

Hand somebody something that shows them that you thought about them before you handed it to them, that when they read it they say holy shit, Emma really likes me.

Find some way to write something that touches your day-to-day human life, and then just feel what it's like to use it. Feel what it's like to have it consumed, and see if you can perceive the inherent value in what a pen and a piece of paper can do for you. That's our tsunami for the week. And I'd love to hear more from you all about your own experience of your own tsunami. because

We all have different experiences when we when we try something new like that.

Okay. Emma, how'd it go? I give you an A plus plus.

Emma Madrigal (52:41) So

why give you a triple a plus plus plus? Seriously.

Moss (52:47) Thank you so much

for being here. Happy birthday again. Emma just celebrated her 14th birthday. No, I'm just joking. Emma just celebrated her birthday and went on a great camping trip and and rushed home to do this recording with us. So I really am deeply grateful that you that you did this for me. it's a big leg up. so this is the deal a fake a robot can fake the voice.

Emma Madrigal (52:51) Thank you.

I wish.

my gosh. Well thank you.

Moss (53:18) But it can't move your hand and it can't write a note. Pick up the pen.

My moss, like, subscribe, follow. We're here every week. Look at our website for upcoming episodes so you can see summary abstracts on what's coming up. It's a lot of interesting content. Really appreciate your audience today and thank you again, Emma.

Emma Madrigal (53:44) Thank you.